Paragone Summary
About half of the people in our group found the sculpting and painting equally expressive and emotional. About one fourth said sculpting was superior and another fourth declared that Leonardo da Vinci’s work was better. People who sculpted found the part where Leonardo says that sculpting is physically engaging most true and relating to what they did. Painters found the beauty of art and the “normalness” of painting to be most relating to their circumstance they had. One person found the fact that sculpting is also mentally fatiguing rather than only being physically fatiguing. Another argued that sculpting is equally beautiful even though it might not employ the various perspectives found in painting.
We never reached a consensus to whether sculpture was superior or painting was superior. Many took the stance that painting is more expressive and beautiful in colors and others argued that the effort taken in preparing the sculpture must be taken into account to say that the sculpture is more superior. Most said that they are equally superior. Sculpting was famous for it’s “irreversibility” if errors were performed during the process, and some agreed to the statement by the Paragone when the people talked about this.
Almost everyone who sculpted related to their challenges when working with the material and the mess that developed as they sculpted. They also complained about the time it took compared for them to swish a lightweight object and produce a masterpiece. Painters found the choice of background and scheme a little difficult. They had trouble finding the correct object to display aerial perspective and the vanishing point in better detail.
After completing the assignment, everyone was affected in their own special way. Almost all regarded art with better professionalism and appreciation for the hard work involved in producing artwork. About half said sculpting was harder because it employs both physical and mental involvement, rather than the misconceived physical fatiguing stereotype for sculpting and the mental use while painting.
Posts
Message no. 874
Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
Which part of the paragone could you most relate to because of your recent art project?
Which part of Leonardo’s argument was the strongest? Which part was the weakest?
Which part of the sculptor’s argument was the strongest? Which part was the weakest?
Those are required. I thought we could add a few more, after all, the harder we work, the more we can learn to appreciate art in its form and gain a broader view of what art really is.
Did you learn anything that you did not know from Leonardo's arguments?
Do you think the sculptors are superior or the painters? Try and provide a side, don't blankly put "both"... really look into it!
That's it right now. Please answer as soon as possible.
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Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: Re: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
I did a two dimensional painting project and used coloring pencils for my painting.
Despite the fact that I have not ever sold artworks or anything professional, I do love painting and drawing especially. I regard it as a valuable hobby, a gift from God and those who love me.
I think that where Leonardo talks about how relatively relaxing, clean and normal it is to paint day and again, is very true. I relate to this paragraph the most because that is what really happened during my time painting. During the time I painted, I found myself done in two hours, and not a single stain anywhere outside of my hand. I painted while I ate, conversed, and even listened to the loud chattering of my young siblings. Painting, however, requires creativity, mind and imagination. One has to be focused during the time he/she is painting, or he will do it all wrong.
Leonardo’s argument is truest where he says the painter has to work when he must “evaluate with care the true qualities and quantities of shadows and lights”. The painter must spend time and energy picturing the scene, practice blending and choosing colors, making the right shape and shades, and usually shadowing and making his/her artwork more real. This, I find the hardest part of painting, as one must observe Mother Nature to make the work as real as possible. His argument lacks support when he states, “[the] sculptor pursues his work with greater physical fatigue than the painter, and the painter pursues his work with greater mental fatigue”. I highly doubt this, as the sculptor must do his own mental examination while sculpting marble and rocks, just as painters do. Painters might have less physical fatigue, but sculptors do not have less mental fatigue than painters do. It is just that sculptors and painters differ to what causes their artwork being hard to visualize. Sculptors face the problem of making precision and painters face the problem of enforcing accuracy to match what they thought of making.
I think that the sculptor’s strongest point in this Paragone is where he says, “… through knowledge of the measurements, he [the sculptor] would have removed just enough and not too much of the covering material. Excessive removal of material arises from his ignorance, which makes him remove more or less than he should.” It is true, as an artist or a sculptor, regardless of being which, must be paying attention to what actions he is taking. The sculptor must feel the figure he wants to sculpt inside the big block of marble… he/she must see it inside the marble. The only way he or she can see it is if he is attentive to the cravings of his thoughts, telling him what he/she should sculpt. If he/she were knowledgeable and thoughtful while sculpting, his sculpture would come out mostly as he wanted to be. Not many artworks come by pure chance; even the tiniest thought of what someone wants to sculpt must be the seed of the artwork. When deciding “I want to sculpt out of randomness”, the thought comes of what “randomness” he or she wants… nothing is accidental in art. The weakest part was where the sculptor mentioned, “…his [the sculptor’s] art is more worthy than painting, because his work is more enduring, for it to fear from humidity, as well as fire, heat, and cold, than does painting”. Clearly, just because the sculptor’s artwork lasts longer doesn’t mean that it is more valuable. Rather it means it is superior IN THAT ASPECT. Paintings may be more valuable because it might have more expression, or as Leonardo put it, painting “surpasses it [sculpting] with regard to beauty”.
This whole Paragone made me think more about the differences between sculpting and painting, as I never thought about it before, and I now can make up my mind about which I appreciate more. I love paintings, as to me, I can feel what they are trying to express, understand the beauty and appreciate the colorfulness. However, I find the sculptors work more laudable, as his/her work is harder to complete, is more time consuming and employs both mental and physical activity. One problem is essentially irreversible as the sculptor pointed out, “if he takes off too much of the outer portion of his material, he cannot add to it later as can the painter”.
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Posted by Johar Manzar
Subject: Re: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
I completed a three dimensional sculpture made out of soap. I made a finger sized hand, which was gold in color. I found this project enjoyable, fun and satisfying. I had never sculpted anything before, and I think I never would have tried if it wasn’t for this art course.
I can relate most to the sculptor’s saying, “The painter’s ... task is to evaluate with care the true qualities and quantities of shadows and lights. Nature provides these for the sculptor's work”. I can relate to this the most because despite the precision needed and the risk of making the sculpture imperfect, I found that I didn’t need to do any mental thinking of where to put shadows and lights into the sculpture. These elements were automatically instilled into my sculpture.
I think Leonardo's argument is strongest where he says, “[the] well-dressed painter sits at great ease in front of his work, and moves a very light brush, which bears attractive colors, and he is adorned with such garments as he pleases” because that is actually what happens. I love drawing a lot, and find that it is just something I can do while I’m busy with other things. I can hear others talk, sing, etc and I can still draw. Painting does not have any physical fatigue, except for maybe sore fingers and wrists. Sculpting is a very body-engaging process.
However, I disagree with Leonardo most where he says, “painting… surpasses it [sculpture] with regard to beauty, since in it are combined the two perspectives, (these are linear perspective and color perspective) but in sculpture in the round there is no perspective except that found in nature”. In sculpture, there is a perspective of angle and dimension, and sculpture may surpass painting with beauty. One feels awe looking at the size of a sculpture and the precision of the proportions and measurements. This may or may not be in a sculpture.
I agree most with the sculptor’s saying, “[the] sculptor in producing his work does so by the force of his arm, striking the marble or other stone to remove the covering beyond the figure enclosed within it”. This is true because this is what I experienced while painting. My fingers were sore because of the carving and there was a lot of dust and soap spread on my desk.
I think I disagree most with the sculptor’s argument that “The sculptor says that his art is more worthy than painting, because his work is more enduring”. This most definitely not true as painting also can be enduring. The material is what matters in term of endurance.
Also, just because something endures harsher conditions better, doesn’t mean it is more valuable.
I feel like I was able to think more about the differences between two dimensional and three dimensional. I think that because of this Paragone, I have understood art better.
This made more thoughtful and observant towards the different elements within an artwork. Personally, I think sculptors are superior to painters and that their work is also more superior. It takes a great deal and hard work, precision and focus to make a sculpture and this is what gives it more value, according to me.
Message no. 876
Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: Our Very Own Paragone Questions!
Hi!
Answer the following questions:
Did the project take the amount of effort you expected?
Explain the challenges you incurred.
Did this experience give you new insight and/or new respect for sculptors/painters?
Those are required. Here is one I want to add.
So, do you find which artwork easier to make, 2-D or 3-D? Which do you now find more appealing assuming that they are both magnificently detailed and full of expressions, culture and history.
If you want to add a few more comments about your project that will be awesome (trust me!). Please answer this thread by Saturday and answer the thread following this one, due by Monday afternoon!
Best,
Gohar
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Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: Re: Our Very Own Paragone Questions!
I did a two dimensional painting using colored pencils on a blank sheet of paper. This project took my nearly two hours, which were incredibly exciting and satisfying. I painted two bridges over a vast landscape filled with beautiful mountains and scenery. There is a river in my painting, and two women standing on the bridge are the focal points. One is farther away than the other, who is quite near. There are two deer, drinking from the river. One is close and the other one is far away.
I think that this project took less than the amount of effort I expected. As I painted, all the requirements of this assignment seemed to fall into place. I felt like I knew the requirements by intuition, it just goes to show, one must practice to learn. I love painting and have always done so since a very young age. I found out that without knowing the requirements of “realness” (shadowing, linear perspective, etc) I used to unknowingly paint just right, just by observing nature and other art.
I did, however, find a challenge when it came to paining the foreground a different color than the background. It took me a long time to decide what object would actually have such an effect implicitly, without being too obvious. I finally decided on mountains, since they can be seen from far away as blending into the shade of the sky while in close up, they look like their natural color.
I gained a respect fro painters as I found this link between art and study, and that art isn’t all painting. It is actually observing nature and events and copying them down, like documenting a fact or story in history. I now think that art is a very rewarding field filled with science, math, philosophy, psychology, culture and geography. I find that art is observations, observation of scientific concepts, applications of mathematical phenomena, etc.
Personally, I find painting easier than sculpting because I feel like while painting, I can simply copy down a picture, rather than having to shape the picture based on what I see. Sculpting requires focus on both the subject being copied and the object being sculpted. Also, in painting, one can reverse accidental damage more easily than if one was sculpting. According to me, because of the hard work and exhaustion associated with sculpting, I find it more admirable. I value paintings more though, since I think I can “connect” with it better than I can with a sculpture.
[Branch from no. 876]
Posted by Johar Manzar
Subject: Re: Our Very Own Paragone Questions!
I sat down on the white plastic mat, soap and knives in hand. As I put the knives and carving tools down, I stared at the golden bar of soap looking back at me. Suddenly, it struck me. I could see the sculpture within, it all became clear. As soon as I had “seen” it, I started to work. I cut out the silhouette of a hand and sooner than I knew it, I was done. When I was finished, I stared in awe at the masterpiece I had brought to life. It was a golden hand, much smaller than the ones I use to type right now. It holds itself up, rigid and firm, as if thanking me for bringing it to three-dimensional life.
This artwork, what I name “The Golden Hand”, took me less effort than I had thought it would. I carved and carved, and everything seemed to put itself together naturally. I have never sculpted before, and this first time was very fun, and the result was better than expected. Even though
I never sculpted, everything turned out just right (excluding some problems discussed later). As a matter of fact, it seemed more an activity than assigned homework.
However, as in most projects, activity-like or not, this wasn’t smooth sail; in the middle of sculpting, I had found mistakes. This was usually because bits of soap had broken off or because I had cut off too much soap. It was hard to fix this problem, for once part of a layer had come off the entire layer had to be sculpted off.
By doing this sculpture, I realized the true work of a sculptor and had hands-on experience to really feel the sculptor’s work. I gained insight into the hard-to-fix mistakes that one could encounter while sculpting.
Many misconceptions of my own were erased. Previously, I viewed art as less of a field of useful study and as more of a fun hobby of no use.
Now I realize that it requires intense focus, concentration, creativity and knowledge. Without a true knowledge of nature and our beautiful surroundings, romantic art would just not be the same. Without knowledge of some geometric or mathematic concepts, abstract art would not be the same.
Personally, I view a painting as easier to make, for there is no worry of three-dimensional faults. However, I paint a lot, so I decided sculpting will be a nice twist to my common ways. I find sculpture more appealing because of the three-dimensional-ism; it allows me to relate to it, to be more at peace with it. There is more variety involved with sculpting also. There can be smooth surfaces or rough surfaces, the sculpture can be itty bitty as mine was or it can be humongous, even color can be changed. But no matter what, judging by the length of time they have remained, both styles will stay in our minds, interest and hearts.
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Posted by Charlotte London
Subject: Re: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
I used floral foam for my sculpture. It makes a mess but works really well. I can certainly understand the frustrations of sculptors. The materials used are certainly not forgiving. Wow, this was a great project. It really is good to stand in the shoes of someone else. You get a greater appreciation for what they love and the hours spent enjoying their passion. The floral form was not forgiving and it was very messy. Small bits are all over the carpet, chairs and not to mention ME.
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Posted by Jeffrey Lloyd
Subject: Re: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
I haven' drawn since high school so this was a test to see if I still had the skills I had more than 5 years ago. I did a pencil drawing of a view down a hallway. The back of the hallway is dark and there is a window that is bright it then lightens up because of lights in the foreground. The sign show where the foreground is being much bigger than the person standing looking out of the window in the background. The vanishing point is directed towards the window that is white with light. The project made me think like an artist again. I have had trouble drawing after high school because I did not have the push that this assignment gave me to think like an artist. Once I got into my mind set, I was able to push out an idea and start drawing. I have always had the respect for any artist so the project did not change much as far as respect goes. 2-D art is much easier for me because it is what I have known and always enjoyed. Plus if you mess up on a 2-D work, you can fix it much easier than you can on 3-D work.
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Posted by Cory Malone
Subject: Re: Questions about Leonardo's Paragone
I couldn't decide what kind of object to make at first, so I tried to make a perfect sphere. I used a piece of soap that I found that almost looked like marble and it had a unique texture. I spent most of my time filing it down, and I added a hole in one side and a line down the middle to add some character. I could see how hard it would be to do this with granite, and you would have to be extra careful and really have an image of what you wanted in your head. If you made a mistake or decided you wanted something different, you would either have to improvise or start over.
Message no. 877
Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: After you have answered and analyzed answers to the thread about “Our Very Own Paragone Discussion”
Hey everyone!
Just so you know, you have to answer this thread after you looked at every one else's answer and responded to "Our Very Own Paragone Discussion"
This thread builds on the previous one, and is a full analysis of artwork. Answer the following by Monday afternoon (i.e. before 6:30) and Johar, you will collect these discussions and put it into a summary. The questions are:
Do you think one type of art is superior to another? Why or why not?
Do you think a discussion such as the paragone is useful? Explain.
How did your week as an artist influence your interpretation of this reading?
Did your group reach a consensus? What was it?
I will add one of my own:
Do you think we need more than a Paragone to reach a decision? Why or why not?
[Branch from no. 877]
Posted by Gohar Manzar
Subject: Re: After you have answered and analyzed answers to the thread about “Our Very Own Paragone Discussion”
Painting, according to me, is superior in terms of connection and insight. I feel like I can really “talk” to a painting, which I am limited to in a sculpture because they seem “unmorphable”. They already have the shape and size they were intended to have and so one can not use his own imagination on what the painting is supposed to mean or accomplish. However, I admire sculptors for being so determined and professional in their job of sculpting.
This discussion had prompted me to answer questions I wouldn’t have cared less to consider answering. The truth is that despite completing the project, one does not gain anything besides pointers on how to sculpt/paint unless a Paragone is done. Not having a
Paragone is like baking strawberry shortcake and forgetting to put strawberries on the cake. The same way, art has no meaning unless one considers it as a subject and profession rather than some free time hobby.
I think that I felt a sort of duty to answer these questions while I was painting, and was taking an unnaturally professional outlook while doing this project. I paid attention to what I was doing and how I was doing it, because I knew that I would have to comment on it. So therefore I believe that my artist experience for this week was more perfect than my other times drawing, animating and scribbling.
As is the case with most issues, not everyone can accommodate to another’s stance. Some believed that the sculptor was better because of his hard work whereas others thought that art had more beauty and expression.
I think that this Paragone is just the beginning of the artistic journey through a colorful universe. A Paragone is just a mere peek at the numerous horizons of the applications to these questions. Through these questions, we will be able to explore the different artworks in life and get to appreciate them while building our fundamental knowledge of art as a subject and leisure activity.
[Branch from no. 877]
Posted by Johar Manzar
Subject: Re: After you have answered and analyzed answers to the thread about “Our Very Own Paragone Discussion”
I believe that sculptures are superior to its counterpart. A sculpture allows a viewer to be one with the sculptor’s world. The sculpture is more similar to real world items, which were, in a way, also sculpted! When you see a sculpture, however, you do not only view it as some object with no meaning or place in the world, but rather as a beautiful, significant work of art that you can really touch and interact with. When you touch it, you feel what the sculptor has gone through. If you feel a smooth surface, you seem to know what the sculptor carved off to make it so smooth and alluring to the hand and senses.
Imagine writing an article that did not have a point to argue. Imagine writing a textbook with no vivid idea of what the subject matter is meant to be. Imagine living life without living life, that is, moping around, eating junk food, sleeping, etc. The same sort of analogy applies to this subject as well. Sculpting without arguing your point is not professional sculpting at all. It is rather a lighthearted hobby with no influence on the minds of viewers. A Paragone, I suppose, has the true potential to change one’s mind, to let one enjoy oneself and indulge while interacting with art.
Before, I, as a matter of fact, hadn’t known what a Paragone even was. I used to draw without the true intention of drawing, without the true intention of creating a masterpiece and allowing others to experience the great experiences while enjoying art. After this, I realized the true meaning of sculpting, which I previously thought of as a wasteful and time-consuming hobby.
Opinions are always diverse. That is a mere fact, and our group’s opinions were all different. Some believed sculpting was a finer art, whereas some just liked good old fashioned painting. This may show us that a Paragone is just an eye-opener. A Paragone seems to just open the minds of the listeners, and present the facts. To reach a unified decision, we may have to have more. A Paragone is just the beginning stepping stone in the long and vibrant ride of art, and who knows what more is hidden?
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Posted by Jeffrey Lloyd
Subject: Re: After you have answered and analyzed answers to the thread about “Our Very Own Paragone Discussion”
I don't think any art is superior over the other. Each takes a mind that can think of the physical creation. The mind of the artist can be more superior to another artist but not the art itself.
I am not sure what exactly the paragone achieves. It is an opinion about the artist's strong point and the criticism of their weakness in my opinion. It’s not fair to say my art is stronger than yours because I can draw and you can't
It helped me think about my drawing in a different way. I looked at the strengths and the weaknesses of my drawing. It also made me respect everyone's creations.
[Branch from no. 877]
Posted by Charlotte London
Subject: Our very own Paragone Discussion
This has been very interesting. In my opinion one art is not superior to another. Each has its own special qualities and or challenges. We can all say our individual daily activities are more challenging than our neighbors but are this really true? I personally found that the Paragone discussions gave a genuine reading into the lives of painters and sculptors. We are giving information that we may not necessarily receive without this discussion. My week as an artist was at times a bit challenging as mentioned in the Paragone. The small sculpture took a great deal of time to carve evenly around the base of the project. I agree that the remnants of the material covered the floor, work surface and my black pajamas. At times it was a bit comical.
Based on the information from my team members it appears some of agree that painters and sculptors have the same or similar challenges as artists. A Paragone is a good start to sharing information but continued conversations are a must. The more we know about the work of other artists can help us with our questions we have about art in general.
This has certainly been a great project. Wow, I have a new found respect for Painters and Sculptors.
